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Friday, August 18, 2006

Evangelising to Jehovah's Witnesses...

Four months into being a Christian and I'm evangelising already!

I knew they were bad news but I'd never met one until last week. A lady and her 5ish-year-old grandson were door-knocking trying to find a vulnerable person to spout out nonsense to. Then she came across me... a not so vulnerable person.

Before she got a word in edge ways I managed to tell her how I became a Christian and how I'm living my life differently now. And then she got the verses out and started warping the views of the Church. Just as she was about to go I challenged her to tell me what they thought about the Da Vinci Code. To most Christians it undermines the Bible because it passes Jesus off as a mere man who had all the desires a human has i.e. not The Son of God. She condemned Dan Brown's writing but then said: "But Jesus was a man. He isn't God." They don't believe in The Trinity, which kinda defeats the point of Christianity!

That was over a week ago. She left me a book to read and said she'd be back this week. Well I haven't read it but I wrote a Bible study of my own for her to read backing up Jesus' divinity (look them up... Colossians 1:15-20; John 1:1-19 John 10:24-30). The thing is I think I've scared her off with the little bit of evangelism I did manage to do while she was on my doorstep! I showed my work to some experienced Christians and they were really impressed. Maybe I should change my career or just use the same skills with a slight change in direction? Just an idea!

And by the way I didn't get the job in Bath, but that's ok!

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posted by Anna and Scott at 10:39 pm

8 Comments:

  • Yikes! Well done for being brave enough to speak to them and not just being rude to them, which I often find tempting, though I'm sure is counter-productive. I remember a great sermon I heard once about how important it is to 'plant seeds' which often later come to harvest, even though we don't know it. That's why I sometimes find it a little odd when people try and put a number on how many people were saved at an event, or whatever. I can see why it's done, but it ignores all the people who've had a seed planted in their mind, if you catch my drift!

    By Blogger Robbie L, At September 05, 2006 10:02 pm  

  • Hi.

    Hope you don't mind a comment from a JW.

    I am curious how born again Christians explain 1 Cor 15:45

    "So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

    Plainly, Jesus is compared to Adam. What do they have in common?

    Jehovah's Witnesses have an answer, but it is not compatible with the trinity.

    By Blogger tom sheepandgoats, At October 11, 2006 9:10 pm  

  • I course I don't mind
    Although there is no reference to "the Trinity" in the Bible there are numerous accounts when Jesus Christ is given a status far greater than a human. I have devoted a whole post to it if you want to look.

    By Blogger Anna and Scott, At October 11, 2006 11:07 pm  

  • Tom -

    Jesus is compared to Adam at a few places in the NT including Romans 5.12-21, 1 Cor 15, and arguably also Phil 2.6-11, and possibly even Col 1.15-20 (even though Adam is not mentioned by name in the last two).

    These passages are very important to mainstream Christian theology because they provide key descriptions of Jesus Christ as the one (i) who undoes Adam's sin (see esp. the Romans passage); (ii) who, like Adam, stands at the 'head' of God's (re)creative work (see esp. Col 1); and (iii) who supercedes Adam as the true 'image of God'.

    In short, Christ is human - indeed, Adam is only a pale comparison to this 'last Adam'. He is the human par excellence. But this does not exhaust who Jesus is...

    Specifically, in the passage you quote, the comparison drawn seems to be something like this: God gave life to Adam, but Christ, the last Adam, is so far above Adam that he himself gives life (i.e. just as God the Father does). So, although Christ is the model of perfected humanity, he also shares in the divine activity of giving life.

    This of course fits perfectly with classical Christian trinitarian theology: the Son is not the Father but 'proceeds from the Father', and yet God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is the source and ground of all being.

    So, what do Jesus and Adam have in common? How do they differ? I hope this helps as a start to answering these questions. But it may be worthwhile to go through the passages mentioned above to study what Paul has to say on this issue in more depth.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At October 15, 2006 1:34 pm  

  • Thank you, Matheson.

    That makes some sense. I have thought about the verse for some time.

    It seems to me that the key is to recognize that Jesus was a perfect man. That’s why he was born of a virgin, with Joseph merely the foster father. Had he been born in the usual manner, he would have been imperfect, same as all the rest of Adam’s descendants. He would not have corresponded in any way to Adam. It would have been apples and oranges.

    And if Jesus is God, again we have apples and oranges. Adam and Jesus only correspond if we recognize that they were both perfect men, the only two perfect men that have ever been.

    This is a huge point to recognize, because it enables understanding of a central Christian teaching: how does Jesus’ death benefit mankind. Without this one-to-one correspondence, all you can get is a touchy-feely answer to that question, one that pulls at the heart but does nothing for the head.

    God sent his son to die, many religious people will say, to show his love for humans. Yeah, okay, but why that and not something else?

    Because God wanted to give the most precious thing he had, is the answer. Yeah, but….why not throw in all the angels as well, and the stars? Wouldn’t that show even more love?

    No, that explanation may tug at the heart, but it does nothing for the head. It contributes to the John Coffey (J.C.)…like the drink, but spelled differently….image of Christianity: Christians are big on heart, with lots of hope, and boundless good will….but they’re really not too smart.

    The Trinity teaching seriously interferes, even prevents, understanding this key Bible point. Doesn't it? But if you make Jesus a perfect man, you get a result that satisfies the heart and the mind.

    Adam was not created to die. Endless life was before him. When he rebelled, he pulled the plug on himself. But not just himself, also all his offspring….all of us. No longer would anyone look forward to endless life, now their certain destiny was old age and death. He sold them, Adam did. He sold them into the slavery of sin and death. And there they must stay, unless someone can buy them back.

    A perfect man sold them into slavery, another perfect man will be needed as the repurchase price. Not another disobedient one like Adam, but a faithful perfect man, as Jesus proved to be.

    You can’t find any perfect men among Adam’s offspring, they’re all imperfect. Only if God sends a heavenly son, his first born, to be born as a human, of a virgin, and so free from Adam’s imperfect heritage, can that perfect man be found. And that’s what God did.

    When you free a kidnapped victim, the price you pay is called the ransom. The ransom price paid to release all of us from bondage to sin and death is a perfect human life, exactly corresponding to the perfect human life Adam threw away. Offering his own perfect life, Jesus bought back what Adam lost, he died for our sins. Now the expression died for our sins makes some sense. Jesus’ life is the ransom price needed to redeem enslaved mankind, and it is the exact price required, thus ransom carries the sense of completely covering….not too much and not too little.

    When it comes to righting the greatest wrong ever, God plays by the same rules he made for us: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a soul for a soul…..in this case, a perfect soul for a perfect soul. (Deut 19:21) Thus, the “legal” framework is in place to restore everlasting life on earth to those who desire it.

    The Son Of Man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matt 20:28

    For there is one god, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all. 1 Tim 2:5,6

    Anna, I apologize for using your blog for this answer to Matheson, since I'm not sure you will agree with this comment, and I really don't wish to be confrontational.

    You even see I changed some wording for this comment.

    http://carriertom.typepad.com/sheep_and_goats/2006/07/the_first_and_t.html

    By Blogger tom sheepandgoats, At October 17, 2006 2:01 am  

  • It's ok, Matheson's my friend.

    Yes, Jesus was the perfect man, but Adam was far from perfect even before the Fall. When Adam and Eve were tempted in the Garden of Eden they succumbed to temptation. Jesus, however, did not when he was tested in the wilderness.

    [Genesis 3 does say Eve was tempted, but if Adam was perfect it follows that Eve was also perfect, since she was made from Adam's rib (Gen 2:22)]

    The Temptation of Jesus is described in Matthew 4: 1-11 and Luke 4:1-14. He was challenged by Satan in the wilderness as were Adam and Eve by the serpent in Eden, but Jesus didn't do as the Devil asked.

    Incidentally, in Luke 4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204:1-13&version=31 we see a prime example of Jesus' divinity. In the third challenge by the Devil Jesus declares himself "the Lord Your God" (vs12). Here are vs9-12 (NIV):

    9The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10For it is written:
    " 'He will command his angels concerning you
    to guard you carefully;
    11they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[c]"

    12Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[d]"

    If Adam and Eve were perfect how did sin enter the world? Surely it would have stayed a divine kingdom, just as Heaven is.
    The Fall of Man and Jesus Christ was all part of God's big plan. God is all knowing and because he made us he knew we would sin. Jesus was different to humans. He was surrounded by sin, but not once did he fall into the trap man did.

    By Blogger Anna and Scott, At October 17, 2006 9:05 pm  

  • Oh My God, I am sorry (no pun intended) but is this the same Anna I went to Uni with? You must forgive me (easy for you lot surely?!) if I say it sounds like you have been brain washed a bit...

    I think you filled a void in your life with religion, and as it harms no-one (don't get too fanatic now!) good for you. But don't expect me to believe!

    By Blogger Char, At October 18, 2006 7:20 pm  

  • I'm not sure why Luke 4:12 need be seen as Jesus referring to himself. I think it is more likely (see preceding verses) that the devil is saying God would send angels to rescue him.

    But I think we may have to "agree to disagree." That is how these discussions often turn out. I suspect we could cover many more scriptures than we have and, in the end, have nothing to show for it.

    Besides, it was't the trinity that caught my attention in the first place. It was your characterisation of JWs as predators "looking for someone vulnerable to spout nonsense to." Now, I realize that you are not intending to be mean, but are merely writing for your friends, who agree with you religiously. I do the same myself. Not a biggie. No offense taken.

    But we are only people that you disagree with, that's all. Regular people trying to serve God the best we can, just like you.

    Thank you for your graciousness & hospitality. You allowed comments to be posted on your blog that you did not agree with. Not all bloggers will do that.

    By Blogger tom sheepandgoats, At October 26, 2006 12:25 am  

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